|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 9, 2011 21:21:53 GMT -5
This was somewhat brought up on another forum I belong to. It was asked what the future of the kit car biz was. I was curious what you guys thought. Could someone in this day and age still have a shot and opening up and make a living in a kit car related business? When I say business maybe its restoration, manufacturing, etc. What about a car lot that just sold kit cars (don't laugh it was done in the day  I am not sure about you guys but I have always wanted a kit car type business. My biggest claim to fame is I know a good about about the history of kit car companies and I also have a great reproduction fiberfab emblem I sell |
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 1:42:16 GMT -5
The component car business is lying dormant, during these economic times. Factory 5 has a new project 818 coming soon...very enticing & promising. Perhaps other kit car designs will be coming soon. One thing to bear in mind is that it takes money to make money...i.e. startup money for a kit car venture. I've been thinking of designing 1/24 scale model kits of many kit cars of the past. Maybe I should start with slot car bodies. Might be viable to aquire the much needed money for any VW based GT kit car ideas I am designing.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 10, 2011 9:49:15 GMT -5
I am keeping my eye on the 818 and have been for some time. As soon as they start taking orders I am thinking of picking one up.
|
|
|
|
Post by jspbtown on Nov 10, 2011 10:07:30 GMT -5
I think the kit car industry has evolved, and as part of that evolution the demand from the consumer has made the industry raise the bar in design and construction.
There are certain kits that can still thrive. I am thinking the Factory Five Cobras, the Porsche Speedsters, & Dunebuggies.
Dunebuggies have expected limitations regarding handling and such and are cheap so I think there is a solid market for them.
The Speedsters and Cobras are really well engineered open style roadsters. They don't need air conditioning, they don't need big stereos. They are bought or built for the driving experience alone.
What made exotic styled kits that are pan based so desireable in the past was the look and the price. I don't think that is enough anymore. Fancy styling with 60 hp isn't going to win the race. And once you start getting into custom frames and drivetrains the price gets so high you start competing with a quality used Corvette that has all the amenities.
For my little hobby I am sticking with dunebuggies after I finish my Aztec 7. They are cheap, plentiful, and you can build them from basic to wild in a short period of time. Plus I think there is a good market for them.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 10, 2011 12:11:01 GMT -5
I to think there is a good market for buggies. And I think Mass/NH is a great place to build them. Often thought about doing them here in Orlando. I do think what makes Factory Five so successful is their product. Not that there is anything overly special about their cobras, but the fact that you purchase their kit and one donor finishes it. This is where other companies should take notice. I welcome more comments on this topic |
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 12:45:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 12:52:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 10, 2011 13:34:12 GMT -5
I am cheap. In my eyes those molds are not worth anything. I have had the opportunity to buy molds over the years and always turned them down. It is doubtful (to me anyway) that you could ever resurrect that brand no matter what you did.
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 14:18:36 GMT -5
Asking price was cheap at $3,500. Condition of the molds...not known..sort of like buy then improve maybe. Not a well known car...with just one in existance...as always...cars tend to sell themselves based upon quality & finish. Not sure if I would take this on myself...even if I could afford it. Just trying to merit this post topic & help you out. Have known about this car for along time...it fit into your topic...so I decided to post it. At some point, action takes presidence over discussion, regarding building or producing kit cars. I think the percentage is around 5% regarding ideas turning into reality...for kit cars. I know it has taken me forever with my own kit cars & ideas that I have. But, it is nice to dream & discuss ideas with other kit car owners & fans....although 95% is just dreaming. Anyhow, I am focused entirely on my Invader GT project. I am determined to finish this car no matter how long it takes me.
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 14:42:45 GMT -5
Speaking of the dreamers...I know a guy in Pennsylvania who once asked me to look for Devin cars & Aztec cars & other pre 1968 vintage kit cars for him. I did this for him & located quite a few of them. He simply is not really serious about obtaining even one of them. He wants them for nothing..he is a dreamer...he continually posts on thesamba for these cars. I have recently located a Devin SS for only $6,500. This is easily a $30,000 to $50,000 car. I think I will not tell this person of this car...I will continue to let him bat .000 regarding obtaining his something for nothing approach with kit cars.   |
|
|
|
Post by jspbtown on Nov 10, 2011 14:54:21 GMT -5
whcgt...your estimations are highly inflated. Your apparent facination with low production skews your understanding of their value.
If it is true that the Femat only produced 1 car it was probably cause it was butt ugly. Why would anyone pay $3500 on molds to produce something as ugly as that car?
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 15:00:57 GMT -5
I agree with you jspbtown. I would have a hard time investing in the 1966 Femat Femco MK2. It is in need of alot of TLC, even then it is a questionable project to take on. The Devin SS however, is quite valueable & if I had the money, I would make it mine. Not thinking of your buddy Rick(Letterman7), a different guy in Pennsylvania had asked me to search for the pre 1968 kit cars for him. He wants them for nothing & has not succeeded in getting any, as far as I know. Me, I am just focused on my Invader GT right now. I have no skew or misunderstanding regarding kit car values or pricing. I have a good grasp of car values, not just with kit cars, but many cars.
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 15:37:57 GMT -5
I think your asking price for your Avenger GT is very accurate & fair....jspbtown...considering the amount of work & the quality of the build. Simply the finest Avenger GT that I have ever seen, good work! Of course, I could low ball you...given your determination of what I know & what I don't regarding kit car values. I am different with my approach with kit car owners, who are trying to sell their cars. Unlike you jspbtown...I am not trying to dictate kit car values or the asking price of a kit car by the owner/seller. I do ask the prospective seller, why they want the amount they are asking for their kit car...but I do not try to dictate pricing or values of kit cars. Anyhow, it is nice having discussions with you & other kit car builders.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 10, 2011 19:43:16 GMT -5
I paid for a set of molds ONCE. a whopping $300 . This is what I had and a body produced from the.  And a body produced from them...  I just personally do not want to be in the manufacturing business |
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 10, 2011 20:08:54 GMT -5
I have seen that car body before, nice styling. So, I guess then the question of the kit car business being dead...is something for others to due something about. This is fine, as it is a risky endevour with no guarantees for profit or even for breaking even financially. This has always been this way, the issue is compounded futher by the economy at this current time. Wondering the future of the kit car industry is not anything I concern myself with personally. Do I want to see exciting new designs & types? Yes I do, but we must keep going on...even if kit cars start fading away. If & when the economy picks up...so too will interest in specialty vehicles & the automotive aftermarket. Whenever there is money to be made & an opportunity to seize upon...people make it happen. Right now, there is not alot of opportunity to make money, so we all tread water & hope for better days. The kit car industry can come back possibly, but it will require alot of factors coming into place. We have what we have until they regulate our beloved kit cars out of exsistance.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 11, 2011 1:20:42 GMT -5
Remember kit car business is pretty broad. Do you build cars, maybe recreate parts, manufacture bodies. I have ideas on what I would do, but at the end of the day I just cant tell if it would be feasible .
BTW how is the Invader coming along?
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 11, 2011 5:52:00 GMT -5
I live in Montana, the Invader GT is dormant during the fall & winter. It is safe & dry under a tarp on the parking lot. This is due to fiberglass being temperature sensitive & am at the stage of being ready to do extensive repair & body modifications to the Invader GT. I have been accumulating parts for the car, for when spring time comes. I did help John Washington of a former kit car mfg. VR Engineering(Vela Rossa), many years ago when I lived in Arizona. I have also had & worked on many kit cars over the years. I definately have experience & ideas regarding kit cars. I have owned: Bradley GT-Bradley GT2(2)-Invader GT(2) & I also bought an Amante GT...but I never recieved it...currently dealing with the dead beat whom I bought it from. I do mean dead beat as well...he will pay me back my money that I gave him or I am prepared to recuperate my money back in blood. He is aware of this, so I am reasonably sure he will pay me back soon. I do believe I have some exciting & interesting car designs of my own, that would be nice to build & sell. As stated by jspbtown...VW based kit cars are difficult to find enough buyers for these days, for many reasons. I do have plenty of time on my hands, I do not have any money on my hands though. I would approach my kit cars differently than most kit makers of the past. I would pre assemble the cars entirerly before selling. You can look to ebay & watch the trends of which kit cars sell & which do not. People want an easy car to finish & a car that is high quality, with a nice fit & finish. They rarely buy project kit cars for much money...finished or near finished cars do sell for a decent amount of money. Unfinished kits hardly ever sell & not for much money. As noted earlier on this topic...it takes money to make money. I do not have any money, if I did there would be a new VW based GT kit on the market. I differ with jspbtown...regarding VW based kit cars as non performers...things have changed drasticaly regarding performance for VW based kit cars. The aftermarket is enormous...with many options & engine choices for VW based kit car upgrades & capabilities. Also, noted earlier on this topic it has always been a risky business with introducing & selling kit cars. The kit car had better be of high quality with nice styling & ease of assembly...or it is doomed. The kit car industry's graveyard is littered with failed projects...for the very reasons mentionioned.
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 11, 2011 6:43:36 GMT -5
BTW: Your kit body & molds that you have...are nice looking. I see alot of Fiberfab Bonito in the upper body styling. I must be honest though, the car is not outrageous enough for me to want to try & engineer & market. If this is what you are getting at. You might be contemplating this idea as well. Though I personally like the car design, it needs spiced up quite a bit. This is just the way it is with todays' kit car market. The kit car design must be outrageous & beautiful with high quality fit & finish & ease of assembly...or it will not sell these days. People have so many things to do with there time, so many options, not available in the early days of kit cars. The attention span of people today is next to non exsistant. So whatever type of new kit car that is brought to market...has to be d**n near a turnkey, or very easy to assemble with quality & styling & performance & component availabity to match.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 11, 2011 8:27:56 GMT -5
I got rid of those molds years ago. Now do not get me wrong, There are a few cars from back in the day I might suck it up and produce, and I know where the molds are. Unfortunately it is a case of a current company that thinks they have pure platinum bars instead of 40 year old fiberglass
|
|
|
|
Post by jspbtown on Nov 11, 2011 10:22:03 GMT -5
Yup...the hobby is full of big dreamers with more imaginationsthen money. Its also littered with the hacked up remnants of those same people.
I am consistantly amazed and the number of people who scoop up kits with such grand intentions and who were never really even capable of building the kit as it was intentionally designed. Despite having 9 kits under my belt I am still extremely hestitant to deviate too far from the original design.
Although I must say with the Aztec 7 I am considering it. Hopefully I will come to my senses when it comes time to restore it!
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 11, 2011 11:07:26 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 11, 2011 11:37:27 GMT -5
Yup...the hobby is full of big dreamers with more imaginationsthen money. Its also littered with the hacked up remnants of those same people. I am consistantly amazed and the number of people who scoop up kits with such grand intentions and who were never really even capable of building the kit as it was intentionally designed. Despite having 9 kits under my belt I am still extremely hestitant to deviate too far from the original design. Although I must say with the Aztec 7 I am considering it. Hopefully I will come to my senses when it comes time to restore it! We are all pleased with the quality of work, with all the kit cars that you have built/owned. I have googled & seen your machines, they are well built. It will take a 10th kit car by you...to be acceptable for you to break your arm while patting yourself on the back, though. It is great that you have money & can pursue your ambitions. It is also ok to not have money...yet make the most of what you do have. Now then, the person who owes me my money back...does not need anyone fighting his battles for him. He simply must do what is right & pay me my money back. Build your machine for you, if you want or need to modify the car...do it for you & nobody else. Keep up the good work with your kit cars jspbtown, it is nice seeing them & reading about them. |
|
|
|
Post by jspbtown on Nov 11, 2011 12:44:10 GMT -5
"to be acceptable for you to break your arm while patting yourself on the back, though"
Huh?
whcgt...I must admit that I am often confused by your posts. When you posted on The Samba I was confused and since you have made your way here I am confused.
For me its not about money or pursuing my "ambitions". I am not rich. I work at a job that feeds my family, keeps them warm and can hopefully get a good education for my son. My work with kits is a hobby. I don't spend time searching the internet for bizarre one off kits. I don't fantasize about one day designing kits. And I really don't care about your failed deal with your kit.
I work, I go home, I watch my son's sports and if I have some time or energy I go out to my garage (my small garage thats fillthy and not chock full of tools) so I can keep my mind from focusing on the mundane thoughts of life.
|
|
|
|
Post by whcgt on Nov 11, 2011 13:21:27 GMT -5
This is very well to know about you. I definately enjoy the kit cars that you build & bring back to life. Your opinions of others...I can do without, you are overly critical of others & you misunderstand other kit car enthusiests alot. I certainly do not want to regard you as an impulsive east coast guy or misunderstand the posts that you write. If I could, I would only see & read about the machines that you build & work on. Unfortunately, your opinions of others seems to be included with your posts...if the ego & opinions weren't there, we would get along fine jspbtown. Take a look at what you write about me, then be nice & you & me will have no problems with our commentary between us.BTW: I was a member of the BradleyGT club a long time ago when I lived in Arizona.
|
|
|
|
Post by centralvalleygter on Nov 11, 2011 23:47:06 GMT -5
I have to admit to being confused about what whcgt has written about jsbtown. While there have been people who posted here that were critical of others, I have not ever felt that jsbtown's posts came accross that way. He has not directed comments at anyone - he has just stated general conclusions drawn after many years of observation while being involved in the kit car world. I must say I find whcgt's posts much more offensive in comparison.
Regards....
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 12, 2011 7:22:30 GMT -5
I have never felt that about jsb either. Always been real helpful to me. Any chance we can get this back on track...haha
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan MacMillan on Nov 13, 2011 0:48:43 GMT -5
I think the biggest hurdle in the kitcar business is the insurance companies and gov't regulations. Currently if you had to have a VIN assigned to your car it becomes uninsureable in Canada. Regular insurance companies will not insure a kitcar/homebuilt or modified. Specialty companies that insure customs and historic/classics require that the ownership states the car is at least 15 years old. When a VIN is assigned it will reflect the year the car was completed.
From Transport Canada
Q. 1. How does Customs define a starter-kit?
A. The Canada Border Services Agency (Customs) officers will define a starter kit as parts if it contains only a bare frame and a body shell, with no mechanical parts. If CBSA officers see mechanical parts, they will ask Transport Canada to decide if the kit is a car or parts, and if it can enter Canada.
Q. 2. Why did Transport Canada develop a system for importing parts for hobby built cars?
A. The main reason was to help Canadians who build their own cars as a hobby. Since1995, Transport Canada allows them to import a shipment of parts that does not fall under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act. They can then get the rest of the materials needed to complete the car, from Canadian sources. The finished car will fall under provincial laws.
Q. 3. Who decides what parts can be imported?
A. The system was developed over time, with input from enforcement officers, standards developers, engineers, legal counsels, the kit car industry, specialty vehicle associations, etc. A regulations enforcement officer decides, on a case-by-case basis, using the Motor Vehicle Safety Act as a guide.
Q. 4. If cars are regulated and parts are not, why must TC monitor kit imports?
A. Over the years, Transport Canada's Road Safety Directorate has become aware that there is a real difference between:
Importing a kit car that requires only some assembly and maybe adding a power train and some easy to attach parts, and
Importing some body parts, to build a homemade car.
This is why Transport Canada, together with Canada Border Services Agency (Customs), developed a system for importing parts for hobby builders. The system draws the line between a car and a parts shipment.
Q. 5. How fair is the system that decides if a kit shipment is a car or parts?
A. Building a homemade car usually requires a starter kit, which includes a detached body and frame. It may also include some parts that are unique to the body's vintage look. Since not all starter kits are the same, the system sets the criteria as standard as possible, while flexible enough to allow hobby builders to be original and creative.
Q. 6. Why not have a simple rule, like 51% hobby builder supplied parts and 49% kit manufacturer supplied parts?
A. Transport Canada's Road Safety Directorate decided that there are too many variables in determining the percentage of fabrication, such as weight of parts, number of parts, cost of parts, labour hours, etc.
Q. 7. Isn't it safer to have more parts in the kit that specifically fit the kit?
A. Yes. That is why a full kit fits the definition of a passenger class vehicle and must be designed and engineered to meet Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
Q. 8. How can Canadian companies sell kit cars in Canada?
A. Many companies that make kit cars or reproduction cars in Canada sell them outside of Canada. They also avoid Canada's Motor Vehicle Safety Act by selling these cars or kits without a national safety mark, within provincial boundaries, where Transport Canada does not have jurisdiction.
Q. 9. How can a reproduction car which represents a vintage car be certified to modern safety standards?
A. Applying federal standards to a kit car will not necessarily change its authentic appearance or its performance. A company's ability to certify its kits depends on its technical and engineering expertise, which can also result in a better, safer, product for hobby builders.
Q. 10. Kit car companies claim to have engineers on staff. Doesn't that mean the vehicles are safe?
A. No. Transport Canada knows that the kit car industry in North America often does not comply with the law or best engineering practices.
Q. 11. The system requires a car kit (starter kit) hobbyist to get parts to complete the car in Canada. Is it legal to buy parts in Canada that have been imported, such as parts from a dealer's parts counter?
A. A hobby builder may NOT import, or have a third party import the parts needed to complete the car. These parts must be bought from a source in Canada not linked to the kit manufacturer.
Q. 12. Why are kit cars freely sold in the United States?
A. People and companies find "loopholes" in American law, and sell uncertified cars. However, anyone who installs the power train in an uncertified kit car in the United States can be charged with breaking the law. To learn more, please contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Washington, DC.
Q. 13. What if certain parts of the "prohibited" systems cannot be sourced in Canada, but are absolutely essential to the uniqueness of the kit?
A. Transport Canada believes that if a kit is really designed, and is actually being used, as a starter kit to amateur build a car in Canada, such parts would not be absolutely essential.
However, some kits are very basic. They may only contain a bare body shell with a windshield, some door hinges and latches, and a bare frame. In these very basic kits that are far from the definition of "vehicle" there may sometimes be room for such items as a particular suspension piece or a fuel cell.
Q. 14. What can a hobby builder do when parts that can be sourced only from the kit manufacturer are missing from the shipment?
A. Contact Transport Canada's (TC) Road Safety Directorate. Getting a second shipment of a missing part is not the same thing as illegally bringing in extra parts that were not on the original list reviewed by TC.
Q. 15. What can happen to someone who imports more parts in addition to a kit list that has already cleared Customs?
A. This is against the law. To learn about penalties, see "offences and punishments" in section 17 of the Motor Vehicle Safety Act.
Q. 16. May a kit made up of a frame with steering system, fuel cells, brake system, some wiring, suspension system including hubs, and a steering column with a key lock system, but without the body, be imported as parts?
A. No, not likely. Most kits are designed to accommodate a particular body, body parts and power train. Such a kit would be considered to be a "vehicle" as defined in the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act. It would have to be certified.
Q. 17. Is it possible under the present system to import kits on a commercial level to sell them in Canada?
A. No. The current system exists solely to help hobby builders to build their own car at home, not to provide a business opportunity.
Q. 18. Can a kit be imported or sold in Canada where the body and frame are assembled at the factory by brazing, welding or riveting?
A. If permanently attached body panels are part of the load bearing structure together with the frame members, and the body is shipped with seats, interior, lamps or wiring harness, not installed, and without the systems mentioned earlier in these guidelines, Customs will most likely clear the shipment as a parts.
Q. 19. Does TC recognize any of the SVA testing conducted by the UK Department of Transport for these kit vehicles?
A. If a replicar or a kit car complies with only those Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) listed in the Single Vehicle Approval Testing (SVA) manual, it CANNOT be imported into Canada, unless:
the vehicle also complies with those CMVSS that are not listed in the SVA;
the manufacturer certifies the vehicle to all Canadian federal standards that apply; and
the manufacturer has all the required test records to demonstrate compliance.
If the kit is considered a parts shipment, it is not required to meet the SVA or the CMVSS.
Q 20. Why do kit cars generally NOT clear Customs?
A. Transport Canada knows that the kit car industry does not comply with North American federal safety standards. For example, according to the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, there are over 200 kit car manufacturers in North America, and not one complies with federal standards.
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on Nov 24, 2011 16:34:23 GMT -5
All good points Dan.
Unfortunately there are so many hoops to jump through to make everything comply
|
|
|
|
Post by aztecs on May 22, 2018 10:02:29 GMT -5
Hello,
I purchased my Aztec 7 in 1988 and until today, I have never seen another Aztec with fender flares like the "S" Class car that belonged to your buddy's Dad's car when he owned Fiberfab. My car looked exactly like the one in the picture, down to the Keystone Classic mag wheels when I bought it. A friend of mine bought several Fiberfab showroom models when the company went out of business and when he put them up for sale, I liked the Aztec and bought it. I have always wondered about the true origin of my Aztec, but I have never heard of or seen an "S" Class model until I saw your post. Do you know how many were built?
Thanks for your help
|
|
|
|
Post by kitcarguy on May 29, 2018 14:38:23 GMT -5
Got any pictures? If I recall it was the only one and built for the owner. Does not make it worth anymore, just an Aztec 7 with flares on it Hello, I purchased my Aztec 7 in 1988 and until today, I have never seen another Aztec with fender flares like the "S" Class car that belonged to your buddy's Dad's car when he owned Fiberfab. My car looked exactly like the one in the picture, down to the Keystone Classic mag wheels when I bought it. A friend of mine bought several Fiberfab showroom models when the company went out of business and when he put them up for sale, I liked the Aztec and bought it. I have always wondered about the true origin of my Aztec, but I have never heard of or seen an "S" Class model until I saw your post. Do you know how many were built? Thanks for your help |
|
